HEVC will it be important enough to buy a new receiver?

[Channel Hopper]

only 2 channels,Fr2 and fr3 are available in 4k. We have 25 channels on DTT
and more online (the "boxes" from Orange,Bouygues,Free....) and satellite.
This comes from a French website:

What programs are offered in UHD 4K on digital terrestrial television (TNT)?​

France 2 UHD broadcasts its entire channel lineup in Ultra High Definition: news programs, dramas, documentaries, entertainment, and sporting events. Programs are systematically upscaled to 4K with advanced HDR management to deliver more dynamic and contrasted images.

France 3 UHD adopts a more ad hoc approach: the channel is activated during events with high audience or high visual stakes, such as the Tour de France, the Fête de la Musique or the Olympic Games.

More from me:
Of course when you buy a new TV you get a "4k" one...
like 12 years ago you'd get a "3D" one...
When watching ,usually old, films ,Monument Valley-type of westerns,
the "3D" icon comes up ,needs 5 presses on the exit button to go away. No 3D in sight!
Funny isn't it!

I didn't suggest terrestrial was in any way H265.

The majority of France has choice of reception of national broadcasts from satellite/cable providers, or terrestrial.

 

[Old Satterhand]

There is one and only way to know the order and it is in HEVC standard - SEI messages, which shall be present for each picture. Interlaced content can be managed by coding individual fields as separate images and passing SEI messages to the player.

SEI - Supplemental Enhancement Information. It supports the delivery of additional metadata signals.

Thank you for your update. I think you are right for the newer hardware, like the dedicated STBs used in France.
Because the H265 standard is originally designed for progressive video only, the SOC manufacturers did not implement any de-interlacing for H265 for their firsts generation SOCs. Decoding is done in hardware, H26x decoding and de-interlacing is done in 1 process. So I think it cannot be changed/updated. H265 is designed around 2013 and allowed interlaced video somewhere in 2017.

The STBs like the VU+ 4K can play interlaced H265 but with limitations.
As far as I can see the fields are vertically stretched to 1080 lines and they show and repeat only 1 field of every frame..
The Liberty Global Next (mini) STB uses the trick I already explained.

 

[hexah]

Always, if you have to choose between two similar receivers, one without and one with HEVC, take the HEVC option.

Significant reason, why there are so few HEVC channels, is the licence fees. HEVC is quite new codec, so users has to pay for licence to licence pool. H264 is older, many (sub)licences are expired, thus partly free, as like 'very' old MPEG2, which is now completely free to use.

I suspect the UK will use h.264 for decades to come to avoid having to pay licence fees!

 

[Miika]

I'm pretty sure Estonia's DVB-T/T2 is all HEVC so I make use of it on my Linux box with sat and terrestrial tuners.

Sadly, just the opposite. We had one nationwide multiplex DVB-T2 H265 interlaced 1080 HD, delivering encrypted content of commercial channels. Then service provider decided to continue only with DVB-T H264 SD and abandoned HD (understandable, if very few used it). After that network provider tried to popularize this H265 network adding main commercial channels and one UHD channel free to air with no charge for channel owners; after quite long period of promotional transmission the channel owners were offered multi-year FTA contract with moderate cost-based charges, but channel owners decided to leave. This network is switched off at the moment, but can be revived at any moment.

National public broadcaster ERR with its 3 channel is on-air, using older DVB-T2 H264 interlaced 1080 HD from year 2012.

 

[Nalleman]

only 2 channels,Fr2 and fr3 are available in 4k. We have 25 channels on DTT
and more online (the "boxes" from Orange,Bouygues,Free....) and satellite.
of course when you buy a new TV you get a "4k" one...
like 12 years ago you'd get a "3D" one...

88.5% of homes in Sweden were passed by gigabit-capable networks (mainly FTTP) by mid-2023.
Here I have a fiber cabinet in my garden but as it costs £2500 to be connected, plus paying for the data, I'm not bothering. I have a 5g modem with unlimited data for £25 a month.

A bit off topic:
Same here - I use 5G which gives very high speeds (330 Mbit/s at its best to about 150 Mbit/s evenings when more users are connected to the tower) even though I'm 9 kms away from the Telia tower which gives the highest speed. I use double Poynting antennas.

There is a tower 1,2 km from me but it only gives around 50 Mbit/s.

 

[timo_w2s]

Sadly, just the opposite. We had one nationwide multiplex DVB-T2 H265 interlaced 1080 HD, delivering encrypted content of commercial channels. Then service provider decided to continue only with DVB-T H264 SD and abandoned HD (understandable, if very few used it). After that network provider tried to popularize this H265 network adding main commercial channels and one UHD channel free to air with no charge for channel owners; after quite long period of promotional transmission the channel owners were offered multi-year FTA contract with moderate cost-based charges, but channel owners decided to leave. This network is switched off at the moment, but can be revived at any moment.

National public broadcaster ERR with its 3 channel is on-air, using older DVB-T2 H264 interlaced 1080 HD from year 2012.

Thanks for the info. I hadn't realised they actually switched back to H264. I just remember reading about the launch of HEVC in the Finnish press ages ago and wrongly assumed they would still be broadcasting in that format. I should have known better - we've been downgrading our terrestrial network in the UK too over the years!!

I do miss the old days when I could watch Kanal 2 and TV3 FTA in Helsinki.

 

[rodscha]

I didn't suggest terrestrial was in any way H265.

The majority of France has choice of reception of national broadcasts from satellite/cable providers, or terrestrial.

in towns,it s over the Internet ("boxes" from internet providers) and their teams took away the yagi antennas.So,a building site near you means...no tv!!.
In out-of-town places,the Yagi to DTT is still there plus satellite in the sticks. Cheap subscription,no I-player.
Internet provides some I-player type of replay on public channels (7 channels).Arte, by Hbbtv ,very convenient but providers managed to limit Hbbtv to Arte...so stupid!!.
French i-player accessible for free ,online for residents.
"Boxes" are popular,but you can 't order your channel list,or have favorites. Favours bullshit tv.

 

[rodscha]

I didn't suggest terrestrial was in any way H265.

The majority of France has choice of reception of national broadcasts from satellite/cable providers, or terrestrial.

so H265 means 4K ? why 265?

 

[Channel Hopper]

in towns,it s over the Internet ("boxes" from internet providers) and their teams took away the yagi antennas.So,a building site near you means...no tv!!.
In out-of-town places,the Yagi to DTT is still there plus satellite in the sticks. Cheap subscription,no I-player.
Internet provides some I-player type of replay on public channels (7 channels).Arte, by Hbbtv ,very convenient but providers managed to limit Hbbtv to Arte...so stupid!!.
French i-player accessible for free ,online for residents.
"Boxes" are popular,but you can 't order your channel list,or have favorites. Favours bullshit tv.

Off topic but I only found out that the latest Virgin viewing box (a 4" square box) does not have any player function.though the bumpf that comes with the router suggests it is available.

TiVo used to be standard but those boxes have been replaced enmasse as contracts are updated.

 

[rodscha]

Off topic but I only found out that the latest Virgin viewing box (a 4" square box) does not have any player function.though the bumpf that comes with the router suggests it is available.

TiVo used to be standard but those boxes have been replaced enmasse as contracts are updated.

so Virgin becomes obsolete. There must be better offers. Btw,Virgin has disappeared here (used to be a rock radio station),and there s no Vodaphone...Are we missing anything?
Here there s a kind of race between 5 or 6 brands of roughly equivalent "boxes" . Some will provide African channels whenothers will supply Arabic stuff. And always very few English language channels. So,I kept my dish!
Like electricity providers in the UK!

 

[rodscha]

Off topic but I only found out that the latest Virgin viewing box (a 4" square box) does not have any player function.though the bumpf that comes with the router suggests it is available.

TiVo used to be standard but those boxes have been replaced enmasse as contracts are updated.

Hello CH,I just read about Tivo,this looks great. Is it readily available? Does it connect on satellite reception or online or DTT reception? The wiki is not too talkative. Amazon sells it at 100Euros-ish. A good buy?

TiVo Stream 4K - Chaque application de streaming et TV en direct sur un écran - 4K UHD, Dolby Vision HDR et Dolby Atmos Sound - Alimenté par Android TV - Smart TV : Amazon.fr: High-Tech

Achetez TiVo Stream 4K - Chaque application de streaming et TV en direct sur un écran - 4K UHD, Dolby Vision HDR et Dolby Atmos Sound - Alimenté par Android TV - Smart TV: Amazon.fr ✓ Livraison & retours gratuits possibles (voir conditions)

www.amazon.fr

 

[vma]

4K will take longer to replace Full HD than it took for Full HD to replace SD.

There are two reasons:
1) The difference in regular living rooms (TV size Vs Resolution Vs Viewing distance) is less noticeable
2) Providers are reluctant to upgrade their whole hardware setup: encoders, decoders, multiplexer, etc. That is a huge investment with little return. Plus the issue with the extra required bandwidth, which costs money, unless you compress it to occupy the same bandwidth, with the result of potentially having a worse image.

I don't think we will see 4K within the next ten years replacing regular Ful lHD channels.

 

[Pride Of Cucamonga]

4K will take longer to replace Full HD than it took for Full HD to replace SD.

There are two reasons:
1) The difference in regular living rooms (TV size Vs Resolution Vs Viewing distance) is less noticeable
2) Providers are reluctant to upgrade their whole hardware setup: encoders, decoders, multiplexer, etc. That is a huge investment with little return. Plus the issue with the extra required bandwidth, which costs money, unless you compress it to occupy the same bandwidth, with the result of potentially having a worse image.

I don't think we will see 4K within the next ten years replacing regular Ful lHD channels.

In the UK it looks like 4K for BBC etc will only ever be online

 

[vma]

The problem is not just transmission and reception, it is production, too.

4K will only make sense for channels that have their own production or live events.

Internet streaming instead of satellite DTH makes sense as you can make low cost productions with cheaper action cams in 4K, compress the hell out of it and stream it to your subscribers. This is what YouTube mainly offers in 4K.

I doubt we will see for instance a movie channel in 4K showing real 4K in proper quality.

 

[ozumo]

Hello CH,I just read about Tivo,this looks great. Is it readily available? Does it connect on satellite reception or online or DTT reception? The wiki is not too talkative. Amazon sells it at 100Euros-ish. A good buy?

TiVo Stream 4K - Chaque application de streaming et TV en direct sur un écran - 4K UHD, Dolby Vision HDR et Dolby Atmos Sound - Alimenté par Android TV - Smart TV : Amazon.fr: High-Tech

Achetez TiVo Stream 4K - Chaque application de streaming et TV en direct sur un écran - 4K UHD, Dolby Vision HDR et Dolby Atmos Sound - Alimenté par Android TV - Smart TV: Amazon.fr ✓ Livraison & retours gratuits possibles (voir conditions)

www.amazon.fr

It is for streaming only. Julie (from France) in the reviews section wasn't impressed.

 

[Miika]

I hadn't realised they actually switched back to H264.

Technically it wasn't a switch back, but switch off. All H264 services remain on air as before.

we've been downgrading our terrestrial network in the UK too over the years!!

Finland upgraded their terrestrial network to DVB-T2 H264 HD and switched off old DVB-T MPEG2 SD last summer, and also closed all pay-tv networks.
We had plans to close SD, but government still funds parallel networks for public broadcaster, because countryside residents have lot of DVB-T-only receivers, pay-tv provider abandoned HD and continuing DVB-T SD as i previously told and anyway everyone who has broadband or 4G/5G, choose streaming option. Young people are even unaware, what is antenna or cable tv anymore. Many don't own the TV-set, but using phone or laptop instead. Some discarded radios too.
There were 5+ specialized antenna shops in Tallinn alone about 10 year ago plus every other electronics shop had antennas, now just one dealer still in business. New house or roof change - no antennas on rooftop nowadays.
Estonian Crisis Committe stresses, that in case of emergency the only reliable source of information will be Public broadcaster's two radio channels and one TV-channel, they will be kept running and on air in any circumstances as long as possible. Mobile networks have batteries to keep cell towers running about 2 - 4 hours, after that remain only 2G for speaking, so no more streaming or listening news.

From september last year Estonia launched two DAB+ networks and third is planned. Latvia said it is concidering DAB+ around 2027, Lithuania is "thinking", but Finland thought it's best to not bother and go straight to streaming only in future.

 

[Channel Hopper]

From september last year Estonia launched two DAB+ networks and third is planned. Latvia said it is concidering DAB+ around 2027, Lithuania is "thinking", but Finland thought it's best to not bother and go straight to streaming only in future.

Finland have their finger on the pulse.

In Ten Years, We Will Listen To Radio Mostly Online Instead Of Terrestrial

Germany Shows The Way: Today, FM still strong, while DAB stagnates Just over six years ago, the federal government presented an action plan...

digitalradioinsider.blogspot.com

 

[timo_w2s]

From september last year Estonia launched two DAB+ networks and third is planned. Latvia said it is concidering DAB+ around 2027, Lithuania is "thinking", but Finland thought it's best to not bother and go straight to streaming only in future.

Except in Finland we're all driving around in pointless DAB enabled cars and all the electrical shops have a much larger selection of DAB/FM/AM radios than FM/AM only so if someone did start broadcasting, there would be at least some potential listeners from day 1.

If I'm near the coast or high up in a multistory car park I can listen to DAB radio from Estonia. The radio in my apartment also picks up Estonian DAB easily as I'm high up so I listen fairly regularly.

In July 2024 some enthusiasts in Jyväskylä, central Finland, had a local temporary DAB service for a few weeks so it is still possible to get a license to broadcast but I doubt there will be any serious businesses planning to start up a DAB service because as you say most people just stream these days (and even my parent's Volvo comes with its own built-in free unlimited mobile internet and streaming apps).

 

[Nalleman]

Except in Finland we're all driving around in pointless DAB enabled cars and all the electrical shops have a much larger selection of DAB/FM/AM radios than FM/AM only so if someone did start broadcasting, there would be at least some potential listeners from day 1.

If I'm near the coast or high up in a multistory car park I can listen to DAB radio from Estonia. The radio in my apartment also picks up Estonian DAB easily as I'm high up so I listen fairly regularly.

In July 2024 some enthusiasts in Jyväskylä, central Finland, had a local temporary DAB service for a few weeks so it is still possible to get a license to broadcast but I doubt there will be any serious businesses planning to start up a DAB service because as you say most people just stream these days (and even my parent's Volvo comes with its own built-in free unlimited mobile internet and streaming apps).

Norway was early to introduce DAB. Last year Norway was the only county in the whole world to have closed their FM network entirely.

Sweden however has decided to keep the analogue FM net for foreseeable future and DAB is only broadcast in some smaller areas.

 

[Channel Hopper]

If the UK still has FM then in reality the other side of the channel is unlikely to deviate.